Principles and Values

In this episode titled "Principles and Values," Dr Peter Blundell and Caz Binstead, co-leads of #TherapistsConnect, discuss the facilitation of their online therapist community. They delve into the importance of creating safer spaces for therapists online, emphasizing anti-oppressive practices essential for fostering an inclusive and supportive environment. The conversation explores the core values that underpin these safer spaces, such as respect, confidentiality, and empathy. Additionally, they address the risks and challenges associated with developing a public community, particularly concerning the vulnerability of sharing personal aspects online. This episode provides valuable insights into building a robust, ethical, and safe online community for therapists.

Unfortunately, we experienced minor coverage issues during this recording, leading to some lost material. This included Peter and Caz referencing their work towards two papers about #TherapistsConnect in general, and, our student community, #TraineeTalk. This was in the context of a discussion about the importance of documenting the hard work undertaken by our platform over the last few years.

The book referred to in the podcast is The Handbook of Social Justice in Psychological Therapies: Power, Politics, Change (Winter & Charura, 2023).

To find out more about the work of #TherapistsConnect search for us on the usual social media platforms, or have a look at our website - www.Therapists-Connect.com

You can find out more about Peter's work via his website.

You can find out more about Caz’s work on their professional website.

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Dr Peter Blundell: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Therapist Connect podcast. This episode was recorded at the beginning of August 2024. And I just wanted to place this episode within the context within which it was recorded. So it was recorded after a weekend of far right rallies happening across the UK in cities in England and Northern Ireland, such as Belfast, Bristol, Manchester, Leeds, and Liverpool. And Now many of these far right rallies turned into riots and also looting across those cities, with many riot police attending those rallies and trying to manage the situation. There were a lot of buildings destroyed, a lot of arrests over the weekend, including a lot of people being hurt and injured. As well as the far right rallies themselves, there were many counter protests who were taking an anti racist and anti far right stance. They were looking to challenge some of the racist and extremist views that were being spread at those far right rallies, including a lot of disinformation that was being shared via social media. Although our episode was a prearranged discussion, we weren't obviously expecting the events of the preceding weekend. But we wanted to do an episode on the values of the Therapist Connect platform and also our experience facilitating this community over the last four years. So hopefully you'll be able to see how some of what has happened in the wider community in the UK actually interlinks to some of the things that we wanted to talk about. If you enjoyed this episode then leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform or share the link of this episode with your friends, colleagues and peers as it really helps to get the podcast noticed. Thank you for being part of the Therapist Connect community for the last four years and we hope that you enjoy this episode. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Therapist Connect podcast. my name is Peter Blundell and I am here with the Therapist Connect co lead Caz Binsted. Caz, hello.

Caz Binstead: 1:54

Hello to the podcast listeners.

Dr Peter Blundell: 1:56

One of the things that we were hoping and doing was, I think it was your suggestion, Caz, was talking about maybe some of the therapist connect values and principles that have rebuilt up over the years, and how they have developed, and where we're both at now in terms of developing the community and supporting the community, and given, which we'll talk about in a moment, when we're recording this episode and what's happening in the national consciousness right now, it seems like quite a pertinent time to have that discussion.

Caz Binstead: 2:26

Yeah, absolutely. it is very interesting that we planned to do this and, we're coming off the back, it's Monday, what's the date? Monday the 5th of August we're recording this. So we're literally just off the back of, the weekend of national riots, by, right wing, we call them thugs. I would call them thugs. but, I guess one of the things I talk about, quite a lot on social media and, stuff like that is, bigotry is a very wide thing. so although what we've been seeing this weekend, has been, a lot of, awful violence. actually it's not just that small isolated thing. It comes from, it's much wider where it comes from. I suppose, it just to say it's been heartbreaking watching, the different photos and pictures from across the country. Peter, I know you're in Liverpool, so I'm sure you can talk a little bit about that. I'm in London I did have, a little unpleasant experience, the weekend before, where I experienced my own dose of, this kind of thing, personally, when I was in a pub in London, having come off the back Of a march that I was involved in, so yeah, I'm really feeling that, but I suppose also, I'm interested in what you and I have seen bubbling under the surface being, avid Twitter users.

Dr Peter Blundell: 3:48

Yeah, absolutely, and we're going to talk about some of that I suppose being here in Liverpool, seeing some of the violence that's happened at the weekend and knowing people who have been frightened to go out of their homes, because of what's happening on the streets in Liverpool, I was glad to see that there, as well as the far right rallies, there was also the counter protests and anti racist protesters who were standing up to that. And, it's good to see Liverpool. I know that happened in lots of other cities as well. but actually the city center happened to be closed down and shops closing, because people didn't feel safe, leaving the city or going into the city center. So it's, yeah it's at the forefront of my mind at the moment as we go into this. into this discussion and I think also what you're saying there Caz is the wider impact of some of these views, that are out there, these far right wing views, but actually we can see them manifested in lots of different ways, not just out in these riots and on the streets, but also coming through on social media as people become more emboldened, to express some of this bigotry.

Caz Binstead: 4:50

yeah, definitely. And I think it's, really hard, To know how to stand up against this stuff at the moment. I think it is important to stand up against it. it's the way that, fascism, has always been defeated. And yet, like you said, it's been great that counter protests have been going on, but it's also been incredibly unsafe for people, who've even been in those protests. it's important that people can keep themselves safe while standing up, which is, something that we have experienced ourselves within the Therapist Connect community. we do have one of our core values is, relational activism and compassionate activism, And we've always talked a lot about the importance of seeing people, accepting people, accepting difference and all of that kind of thing. human beings are human beings, and yet as a community, we've seen that line between how do you keep yourself safe and how do you stand up for things.

Dr Peter Blundell: 5:56

one of the things, I don't think it's been directed at us necessarily, but I've seen some criticisms of, the kindness, compassionate, principles from some people on social media who say that actually, when you're facing racist views, or when you're facing transphobic views, that you shouldn't necessarily be kind and compassionate, to those people. And I suppose the way I see that kindness and compassionate principle is that, actually, It is when people are upset and angry about experiencing racism and transphobia or any other oppression and trying to talk about the hurt that has happened, that's when people need to bring in their kindness and their compassion, yeah, to be able to actually hear what those people are saying and not dismiss or be defensive or, minimize what it is that people are trying to, share is happening to them or other people.

Caz Binstead: 6:48

Yeah, there's different ways of doing activism, right? and there's different ways of standing up against things. But, I suppose it's a point that you and I have always agreed on. the importance of relationships. And also, in a climate like this, the more anger there is, the worst that's going to get. Of course, there's so many different ways we can talk about activism, but, You can write a social media post and that can be an effective, way of, really getting your views out.

Dr Peter Blundell: 7:18

And I suppose there's activism, which is actively being out there, but then there's also activism in terms of supporting others who are out there. one of the things I was reflecting on when, we were coming on here, I was thinking about all the different podcast guests that we've had on over the last four years and, how, some people have been apprehensive about becoming on the podcast and sharing aspects of their experience, but also some people have, not felt safe enough to come on the podcast and share some of their experiences and not felt safe enough to share their experiences within the therapy community. And that also scares me a little bit, feeling afraid of the therapy community and how they're going to react and respond, to someone sharing aspects of their lived experience. And that's based on their previous experiences of sharing things.

Caz Binstead: 8:07

Maybe we can talk a little bit about therapist community itself, and our own. journey, if you like, as Therapists Connect, and then also we can talk about Twitter in between that because, they go hand in hand, but just on, Therapist Connect itself, Peter, you, before we came on, I don't know if you can remember what you said to me, but you said something. Do you want to have a go? It just felt so, pertinent and so powerful in terms of our own experience.

Dr Peter Blundell: 8:33

I'm not sure I can remember it. Caz said, remember that. And I thought, yeah, I will. And now it's completely gone out of my mind. I think what I was trying to talk about was the layers, of how things have affected us in terms of, as we started as Therapists Connected, that's it. We tried to be as inclusive as we possibly could. as many therapists as we possibly could so that each person's views could be expressed. And I think what's happened over the last four years is that it's tested our limits, I think, in terms of trying to, include everybody. And we really start to think about what views are we including? What is our page about? What, values are we sharing on our page? And I think, I think we can admit it in the past. Sometimes maybe we, have, I'm not saying encouraged, but we shared things that maybe we reflect on afterwards, that actually maybe that wasn't the best thing to share. Maybe that didn't upheld our values actually, as much as we see them now. And now I think we're more along the lines of how safe is our platform for other people? Where's the starting point of the conversation? It's not. Just that we have an open conversation. There must be a starting point and I think both of us believe in anti-oppressive practice and developing safer spaces. And so I think that's what we've, tried to do over time..

Caz Binstead: 9:54

I think it's really interesting that question of how you include. people, what inclusion actually means. Therapist Connect, by the way, started in the pandemic year 2020. So that sense of including Everybody because people didn't have their usual kind of networking, groups or ways of being, with other therapist. So it's very important actually, to have a place for therapists to come and, chat and be together and connect, but I think that, yeah, as time has gone on. There's been something about how do we do inclusion in a way that is really properly about inclusivity. And respecting all human beings, and that's sounds so simple, but it's not simple. and of course, we developed, you people may have heard us talking about our safer spaces, work, and we do have, it's a big part of Therapists Connect, that we have this kind of safer spaces, initiative. because we've had to think a lot about this and we've come up against roadblocks and wondering because we have a lot of people and people are going to have seen this if you're on Twitter. We want to include everyone and want everyone to respect everyone else. sometimes it might be that Other people are not being seen and other people are not being respected. in that sense, what justice do we do in terms of anti oppressive practice? If we allow absolutely everything, It could actually become a very, and I know safety means different things to different people, but it could actually become a very unsafe space. for people, including our own team.

Dr Peter Blundell: 11:49

And I think there's something for me around, at the start, I think we were encouraging debate and discussion. And that, and we would encourage that now, but I think when it moves into a space where people are discussing other people's identities, or, aspects of practice, which could be harmful. And we're having those discussions and people haven't maybe fully processed or understood their own position, their own intersectionality, their own privilege. Say, for example, those discussions then become harmful to other people. And I'm also not sure now whether, should they be public discussions? If you've got something to work through, and something to reflect on, yeah, maybe you do want to talk to other therapists about that and work through something. That should be in a private space rather than in a public one.

Caz Binstead: 12:44

Yeah, because multi layers to, the arena that we operate in, which is social media. because exactly everything that you're saying there, and then you've got the added thing of what social media does to people. And, I experienced this at times, you have a bad day, you're feeling a bit stressed, bang something out on social media that in another, on another day, you probably wouldn't have done and I think that we see this is the thing with Twitter it can become a space where almost like anything can be said. And if you weren't on there, You might not actually be saying those things to people, so I think it's very easy for folk to lose themselves and, that's something that we have to also consider as a platform.

Dr Peter Blundell: 13:29

I think there's also something interesting around and I've seen discussions about this and maybe it's interesting. different between I'm going to generalize a little bit, but maybe like the American therapist versus the UK therapist. There could be lots of different reasons for that. But whether as a therapist, we should behave differently online versus Your average member of the public. Now my belief would be I do think we need to behave differently online. Like I think we need to be mindful about the values and the ethics that we, are advocating for and that we're bringing. I have seen other therapists say I'm just a human being. This is how I work. I'll just express whatever I'm thinking and feeling. and, I've seen some. We've probably both seen some horrible situations where, therapists have been, bringing people down who are clearly going through something quite difficult at that moment in time, and where's the empathy and the compassion for the people that you're trying to engage with, whether you are morally or intellectually right on the point that you're making. It's also about how you're engaging with somebody, which I think is really important as a therapist.

Caz Binstead: 14:35

yeah, there's so much to think about in terms of ethics and the use of social media and we're only just really scratching the surface, but it is something that I guess you need to be thinking about. How you use your social media accounts and Peter and I, we use our social media accounts differently. we've had many conversations over the years and I think that in terms of self disclosure or boundaries or whatever, we may have slightly differing views on, what Peter might choose to put out, what I might choose to put out. But what we do have in common is that we've both thought a lot about that. think about, what that means for us individually, what it means in terms of our way of practice and our modality. this is really important. I agree with what you say. We cannot escape the fact that we are therapists. Now, I have a bit of a bugbear about the straitjacket that I feel like I've been wearing for so many years. I've been really feeling this year, this sense of getting rid of my shackles, if you like. I do feel like there can be a big kind of heaviness sometimes in terms of, that you are allowed to do this, you're not allowed to do that. And even in discussions about, thinking about your own privilege and all the anti oppressive, discussions that we have, which are so important, even that, sometimes it's such a lot to think about. and you're always thinking about these things. but then that in itself, it feels too much, but the truth is we are therapists and we are putting ourselves out there and we are representing our profession and also, clients can find us, current clients, but also remember, if you're in private practice, clients will be looking for therapists and they may well send you an email, but they might also look at your social media as well. so there's something else about that. So yeah, that balance between. being able to be free as a human being, and also, the fact that you are a therapist, it requires quite a lot of thought actually.

Dr Peter Blundell: 16:33

Yeah, it does. And I suppose there's also, I think there's something also important about thinking about the spaces where you talk about that and making sure that you've got support around that, it's probably something that could be discussed in supervision, around, What you put out there, because it's possibly how it impacts on the therapy that you might have with clients if they see it, but also the impact on you as a therapist by being out there and the things that you post. And there's so many different ways that things can be interpreted. it's difficult to think through all of the, nuances of that. both of us have had that where we posted something and someone's gone, but hold on, what about this or that language that you've used or how about this? And as soon as someone points out, you think, Oh my goodness, why didn't I see that before I posted it? Maybe apologize or amend it or edit it or take it down or whatever. But it's quite difficult to think through absolutely everything before you're putting something out there.

Caz Binstead: 17:27

Yeah. And I feel like then talking about us as Therapist Connect co leads, this is another, role, if you like. I'm really pleased we're at the moment where we're on a break. We've, we're recording a podcast. We're on a break, in every other sense of the word in the, our accounts are closed at the moment. and we're giving ourselves a month off, this summer, which, I'm really pleased about.

Dr Peter Blundell: 17:50

the first time we've done that as well, had a whole month not working in the last four years.

Caz Binstead: 17:54

yeah, we've taken, we used to not take any breaks and then we began to put it in. And credit to Helen, who is a member of our team, who has helped me and Peter particularly, a lot. I love what we've done as a platform. I love being in community. People will know that I love being in community. I love chatting with people and I like being with, practicing therapists, but I also like the fact that we've been able to, ourselves come from different worlds as well. And, really try and make in this, spirit of inclusivity, really try and make therapists connect to platform where, in addition to whoever you are, but whatever you do in the therapy world, you can have a place. but yeah, I'm very aware of, our own identities, and our own lives, and the importance and our own time, let's not beat around the bush. we've put a hell of a lot of free time into, this community, which, we've chosen to do. and like I say, it's been great, but also, there will be limits to what we can do as people. And I really want to say this while I'm on this podcast. There are sometimes limits to what me and Peter can handle as people. Because sometimes I feel there's going to be things going on, even in the therapy world, discussions about certain kinds of things. And, we're not just machines. There will be things that have an effect on us. And it might be because of our own identities or how we feel about things or experiences that we've had. It might be because of experiences in our families. So yeah, I just really wanted to say that.

Dr Peter Blundell: 19:37

Yeah, Caz, thanks for saying that. I think, maybe it just shows what different places we're at where we feel like we may be able to say that. Versus in the past where maybe we have just felt like, we just need to get on with it and not talk about it. And I think not as much now, although it still does happen and maybe that's also because we're taking better care of ourselves in terms of how much we put into the work. But I know there has been occasions where we felt like there's been moments on social media where we felt like we've been. That's tip over the edge, in terms of, managing our own process and, engagement with social media and how much we're giving to the platform. and I think, I hope people understand that if we haven't got back to them about something or if we've gone quiet on something we might be going through something at that particular time and we're doing our best, but, yeah, it's tough sometimes.

Caz Binstead: 20:36

yeah, that's a nice way to put it, we're doing our best. As all human beings, and all community members feel this, all we can do is do our best.

Dr Peter Blundell: 20:45

And I think it's also to acknowledge that we don't mean we're not open to critique and feedback and all of that kind of stuff. which we always are.

Caz Binstead: 20:52

I wanted to pick up on something we discussed in the last podcast, the last time we chatted together on here, which was about where, social media, where we're going in terms of therapists using social media, because we were reflecting, I think last time on, how it just wasn't really clear. and I think we were saying, that it, one thing was obvious last, so this was February last year you said we did it, yeah. Yeah. February last year, 2023, was that people were perhaps moving platforms. and certainly one thing I'd noticed was more therapists moving over to Instagram. what are your thoughts what you're seeing at the moment?

Dr Peter Blundell: 21:32

I think I've seen more therapists using LinkedIn, actually, rather than Instagram. What I found interesting about that is at one point I felt like people were coming off social media. It felt like where have they gone? And then all of a sudden it felt oh no, actually people are about, but they're not all on the same platform. Maybe I'm not connected to everybody on LinkedIn who I am connected to on Twitter, say for example, or the same via Instagram. So I'm seeing people in lots of different spaces. but LinkedIn seems to be one, when more discussions are happening, but I think that's maybe a bit more of a natural function of LinkedIn, whereas Instagram's a little bit more about the posts and the videos and the, and there isn't as much discussion. I don't think that happens in that space.

Caz Binstead: 22:18

Yeah. I was blown away with this LinkedIn rise. so one of my, one, I had one of my friends say it to me, she was like, Oh, I'm done with Twitter. I'm over on LinkedIn. And I was like, really? and then I had, more and more of my friends saying to me, Oh, LinkedIn's the place to be. And I was like, Okay, now Peter's gonna have heard this so much from me. I'm a bit averse to anything that I see as corporate. so this is just the artistic, creative nature of me. So I was like, I'm not, I'm really not sure about LinkedIn. I'm not sure about this, but I must say, I joined, you've been over there for a while. I know, but I did join this year. And, yeah, I'm getting into the swing of things and it doesn't actually feel that corporate to me because it feels like you say, that actually between therapists, there's just conversation based. things going on.

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:11

I was going to say you've got lots of therapists on there, so it's probably not going to feel very corporate.

Caz Binstead: 23:16

Some people might be,

Dr Peter Blundell: 23:17

that is true, yeah, that was a bit of a sweeping generalization. I think there's so many different platforms now, there's kind of Blue Sky, there's TikTok, there's so many different, platforms and I think it's interesting to me as therapists. Do we need to have something on every single platform? people are taught if one platform goes down or disappears or gets taken over by Elon Musk, then, do we want a different platform? And if you've only fostered a group of people on one platform, it then makes it Difficult to transfer over, or it can make it more difficult to transfer over. And I should mention threads in this somewhere as well,

Caz Binstead: 23:52

it's just reminding me of when we actually thought Twitter was going down. Do you remember? I don't know if people were aware. Everyone on Twitter was aware of this, but I can't even remember when it was, but it must've been when Elon Musk was first. buying it, or was he gonna buy it, or was it all gonna fall through, something like that. But we all thought Twitter was going. and it was quite a kind of, oh my god what's gonna happen if this space goes? And I think for us I was gonna say we feel at home on Twitter, but I'm not sure that's the right way to put it really, but, we did both meet on Twitter and, we've been on Twitter for years we both still have pretty big followings. I do feel like people are still skulking around we, we've known this about our community in particular that there's some people are very, in it, and some people are more on the outskirts, and people would every now and again I always say, something I love when we get to the birthday and people who, Sometimes I wouldn't even know who people were and they'd send me a message saying thank you for the community and there was, I just love that. I love that because, our community is not just there for people who use our hashtag or who are involved in the discussions.

Dr Peter Blundell: 25:02

I think there was a lot of different communities that were bereft when Twitter or X was changing and it feels to me like the algorithm has changed. So there's lots of advertisements, maybe people commenting who aren't really part of the therapy community is seeing the posts and so it's a bit difficult. I think people were worried that. communities they'd spent many years cultivating were was going to be gone. So I think that's why people might be reluctant to leave Twitter. but also, I've got people on LinkedIn who come to me and we have a chat and then they're Oh, what's going on over there because I'm just not part of it. whereas I think before whatever was going on Twitter, people knew about, yeah, there seemed to be discussions and stuff like that, but there's so many people who aren't there now. that I think that's changed quite a bit. I know this is where I think Caz and I might be slightly different at the moment is, so I think you still post quite regularly. So you still have an active engagement. Nice, it's not that I don't post at all. I'm a bit more back, not off social media because I'm still there looking, but I suppose some of the stuff I'm trying to do is create like this longer form content around like podcasts or articles or blogs or whatever. which I know you're also doing with other stuff, but I think you do that and post as well. whereas I felt like sometimes posting individual stuff, it would get lost in the ether. So you'd have an interaction over that day and then it'd be gone then, it's in the history of your timeline somewhere. Yeah. Whereas like the podcasts or the writing or whatever is something that can stay there forever. And maybe personally I might post more of that stuff now, and less of the discussion stuff. Which I still find interesting and I still will engage with that, but just not as much as I was doing beforehand.

Caz Binstead: 26:39

Yeah, it's such a good point though. I think, community work is one thing. And community is all about being able to have these discussions and, just for the sake of having the discussions and giving people a voice who might not otherwise have one. And I think that one of the powerful things about the Therapist Connect hashtag has been that people can use that hashtag and can feel like they can have a say if they feel, Somewhat bottom of the rung in terms of our profession. and we do have a very, hierarchical profession. I think that the social media space has been important over the past years in terms of, people having, more of a voice,

Dr Peter Blundell: 27:23

And maybe levelling that hierarchy a little bit as well.

Caz Binstead: 27:26

yes, exactly. Now, this is the but, because, absolutely, levelling that hierarchy, but in what you were saying there in terms of longevity and things Put in, put in stone, I have a little remark or that I guess something I've noticed, which is around, how nothing's protected in social media. You can write a tweet, you can write a post, you can even do a podcast and I know that with referencing these days, you can pretty much reference, and reference fairly, but, and of course Peter's going to know it. Being an academic, Peter knows so much more about this than I do, even though I am a writer as well. But, if you have an idea or if you've done something, actually, and this is aside from community work, but maybe this is about individual stuff where you can say, Oh, actually, I did that, or I talked about that, this is something I've tried to really think about myself because I'm so for community and, working together, collaboration, I'm all for that. But, I think for me, sometimes I don't give myself enough You were one of the first people to do that. Or you and Peter were one of the first people to do that. I had discussions with Professor Lynne Gabriel and, John Wilson from, online events obviously online events has been community based, they've been around longer than Therapist Connect, but it felt like they were very much there with us when we were in the pandemic and I was chatting with them and they were both saying Therapist Connect was doing a lot of the stuff that other communities and other people are writing about and doing now. Therapist Connect was actually doing that, first, in terms of hierarchy and power, so giving people a voice, does bring people up and help to address that, but on the other level, if some of the people with the most power in this profession are then jumping things that have been said by, say, a lay, a private tweet or whatever has a really great idea, and someone else with power picks it up and runs with it. That then does the opposite. So we always feel and maybe this is something for us to think about. As a community and depending on our time and stuff like that, but yeah, how much, as a real community based platform, we can even, model something in terms of, the protection and the respect, around, Yeah. Ideas that people have or whatever. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Dr Peter Blundell: 29:57

It does make sense. I don't know why this image is coming to my mind, but I was thinking about, cause I've always thought this, that Twitter has been a bed of ideas, just lots of people's opinions and ideas and thoughts and reflections. I just had an image of a vacuum cleaner. So as if someone was just coming along to that and going, just sucking it all up and going, yep, thanks very much. That's fantastic. I'll take all of that for me. but not actually giving credit to the people who came up with it in the first place. And sometimes that might be unintentional as in. Oh, you've read the idea and then you've forgotten who came up with it or you even believe that you came up with it yourself, but actually it was something that you read somewhere. And also the intentional where, people have been working in this area for a long time, yet you're taking the learning from them and portraying it as your own idea. so I feel like we're coming. To the end now of our discussion, we didn't script any of it. We just said we were going to see how it went. one of the things we did agree upon is that we were just going to share this quote, from. the Handbook of Social Justice in Psychological Therapies, Power, Politics and Change, which is, edited by Laura Ann Winter and Divine Charura. it's the very last, paragraph of the book, written by Laura and Divine, and we just thought this kind of represented some of the things that we wanted to talk about today. social justice action can, and often does, come with risks for the individual or individuals or community groups who engage in action and activism. This is particularly the case where the individual is minoritized or marginalized themselves and advocating or engaging in social justice work connected to their marginalized identities. Historically, we know there are many examples in which activists were murdered or suffered political violence and silencing. There are costs to engaging in this work and these should not be ignored. We need to acknowledge these costs and take care of ourselves and of one another as we progress in trying to change things for the better. And then the final line is we hope that the ideas contained within this book help our professions to do just that. I suppose what we're hoping for is that some of the thoughts and reflections that we've had in this podcast and some of the other guests of the podcast and the community, are moving a dial towards that as well. Yeah, I'll mention all that. Thank you, Laura and Devine as well. so thank you everyone for listening to, this podcast episode. we'll be back next month talking to more therapists about their life and work. Thank you very much.